Thread: Stick welder questions

Tweet

.....Yes Hotroddaddy, that's a great idea to use the 70 series rod AFTER the root pass with the 60 series.
.....Hoof, It's a rod that you just 'drag' when you run it. Just strike your arc, touch the rod to the parent metal & 'drag' it forward staying just a little ahead of your puddle. And when/if you get the 70 series rod I'd get the 3/32" size. It's the size right under the 1/8" rod & because of the fact that the 70 series rod needs to be run hotter than the 60 series you'll find that you'll probably be able to run the 60 series 1/8" & the 70 series 3/32" at the same heat setting. So it's like a double bonus; 1) you don't have to switch settings when you switch rods & 2) the smaller the rod the easier it is to control & guess what??? If it's easier to control, it LOOKS better! ..... Also from my experiences in welding I found
that 7016 is even a little easier to run than 7018 so you might try that. Oh also make sure that everything is clean & as rust free as possible. Oh yeah, for lower amperage settings it's acceptable to use a #9 lens in your hood. This makes it easier to see what's going on verus using the #10... I was wondering something else; You mentioned having a deep gap to fill??? How thick is your frame??? I'm thinking that may be you made your 'V' groves to wide??? All you need is a little 'v' to get some penitatration not a big wide gap. I'm having trouble visulizing a frame that's so thick that it needs multipul passes. I think you mentioned already haveing the frame fabbed up to weld so keep this in mind for next time. Also another thing you can do if you have trouble with the root pass is to only 'v' grove one side 1/2 of the way through the parent metal. Then after you've welded one side, grind through on the other side of the metal to the back side of your first weld pass. Then you just weld a pass on the back side... Am I making sence??? So for your first pass you've used the parent metal as back up & for the pass you make on the backside your first weld is your backup. BUT again, remember you don't need much of a 'v' grove in the parent metal! have a good 'welding week-end' Bill

Hoof, Can you post a picture of the frame your welding??? Bill

Here are my last "tests." I have been burning rods on a flat plate, but I just had to try the frame rails again.







CHAZ

Chaz, just a suggestion. Since the strength of a frame is so important, why don't you do what I always have done, tack it up and have someone who knows how to really weld finish it. I know that isn't what you want to do, but this is one area you can't take chances with.

Maybe you can even find somebody at the local VoTech who will stop by and do it right there at your place. You can slip them a few bucks and watch how they do it (But only if you also wear a mask ). You can have everything preclamped and ground clean, ready for them to just finish welding.

Give this some serious thought, please, as the last thing you want is for your frame to break when you are driving the car. With a little work you can find someone to do this for you. Then you can tackle some less significant parts yourself.

Don

The frame is 1/8" thick, 6" C-channel laid over top of each other. The little pc. that I welded up as a test (pic up a few posts) is exactly what I will be welding. I had no control over the v, it had to do with the bend in the c channel. Two local guys who have built a few hotrods were over last night and were actually pretty impressed with the test on the frame rails I did. I am going to weld the rail front and back, then box the back, and put fish plates on front and back. I think part of the problem I was having is I was cleaning the metal up with a knotted wire wheel. Last night I actually used a stone and it seemed to weld easier. Maybe the wheel wasn't cleaning it up well enough?

I was originally going to tack everything together with my dads wire feed mig and have someone finish it up, but I would really like to do this myself. I am willing to spend the time learning and practicing until I feel I can tackle this safely.

CHAZ

Yeah Chaz, I wasn't trying to say anything about your welds, but do you really want your very first welding project to be the frame? Especially where the frame has been cut in half and is being rejoined at a Z ? Maybe some minor brackets or whatever, but the welds you are talking about here are very critical and will be stressed anyway by the fact they are on a kickup.

The frame is the foundation for the entire build, and it takes a great amount of stress and flexing. You see that I didn't even attempt to weld the frame for my bucket myself, and I have welded for years.............not pretty welds, but mine do hold. I didn't mind stepping aside and letting my Son do this for me because it is so important to get this part of the build done correctly and strong.

To answer the one part of your question, yes, you have to grind the steel until it is shiny clean to get good welds.

Please rethink the welding issue until you have more experience.

Don

....Chaz, your welds don't look bad, I think your getting the 'hang' of it .... I'm having trouble thinking of how to word this so it makes sence but if your ossolating in & out of your puddle then try to get a more steady flowing back & forth motion. No quick jerks in or out of your puddle. Just smoothly in & out at one speed.... If your not ossolating then work on keeping your rod steadier. Are you using your left hand to hold & steady the rod???
Oh, did you run a wide bead over a smaller bead in the bottom picture??? If so then try this instead; try running what they call 'stringer' beads. Instead of running a large weave bead over your root pass do two or more stringer beads. When you do this, after you do your root pass, then you run two beads over the one root pass. Side by side, with one bead overlapping the other. But keep in mind that your main strength is going to be in the quality of your root pass, NOT in running bead after bead over the top. Why don't you post a picture of your frame??? {a full shot of it} I'd like to see exactly what type of joints you'll be welding, what possition, etc.... Your doing a good job ,,, Keep it up! Bill
Oh & remember when you fish plate DON'T weld it on by welding horizontally on the frame. Just plate so that your welds will be at a 45 degree angle to the frame.....
My favorite thing to use to clean up welds is a small Maketta grinder w/ a stainless steel brush on it....

OK, here are the pics. I have the frame up on its side so all the welding I do will be flat horizontal. Once I get one side done I will flip it 1/4 do the top, flip it 1/4 do the other side, fip it 1/4 do the bottom. I have it all trussed up and clamped down to my lift. Think of it as a huge welding table. It is square, level, and as true as I can get it. It is actually bolted together right now, I plan to leave the bolts there as they will be inside the rail and should be no trouble.










Thanks,
CHAZ

....ok so your looking at flat butt joints, flat t joints & horz butt joints??? That what it looked like to me but the pictures are dark.... How's the practicing going??? Update us with some pictures, ok??? I think you'll be ok with a little more practice.... Consider putting a back up strip on the butt joints. This will make it easier. And bend your practice pieces.... Keep up the good work ... Bill

billsbird has given some good advice welding,i just want to throw in a couple peices of advice,first before i cause a "battle of advice thread",ive been welding since i was a teenager in my fathers garage building rods,side jobs for ornamental iron,then at 17 i started as an apprentice Ironworker & now 46 years old & am an Unlimited certified welder nationwide for nuclear power plants,government jobs..etc.we regularly get flown all over the country for this type of work

a 60 series rod is ONLY good for filling a gap before welding over it with a better filler metal which would be in most caes a 70 series,E7018 being the most popular used
60 series rods are brittle metal but much easier to fill gaps,weld through rusty situations, but the weld is actualy VERY week & brittle
when using it make sure you grind most of it out before using the 70 series to weld over it

since you are pretty new to stick welding,after every pass you make,wire wheel it clean & then grind the weld ONLY to where the weld is clean & ALL metal to make SURE you have no slag pockets or porosity(air bubbles caused from contamination or not enough penetration).
this way you KNOW you are getting 100% penetration & no empty pockets in your weld
when butt welding the frame several things will help you acheive the structural strength needed to accomplish what you need to be done for your safety..
1..use a backing strip so you are not burning through
2..tack the whole thing together before welding it all up,this helps it not to warp all out of proportion
3..tack weld supports or jigs all over in X's to hold the frame where you need it to stay & do NOT take them out untill all the welds are cool to the touch,most of the time i'll let it sit all day or overnight if i have the time
4..after the welds are all done & you are satisfied with the results,one way to ensure extra strength in the welded area is what we call a diamond plate,it is a peice of plate cut to a square shape so that when you turn it sideways it looks to be a diamond shape,,place this over your weld(after grinding your weld flush with the metal) to where it has the diamond shape & then weld all the way around,this adds ALOT more structural strength to butting together 2 peices of metal butt jointed

when overlapping metal to be welded,before lapping them together to be welded, drill a few holes on the outside peice so when you overlap them to be welded you can fill weld those holes to the underside peice,this is called Plug Welds,first weld both ends,then plug weld the hole holes to the underside peice

since you are new to this type of welding..IF you can,tack weld the jigs or supports everywhere possible to hold it on place so you can turn the frame around to flat weld it all up,when doing this IF you can,dont have the weld perfectly flat,angle it when welding it, it is on a slight pitch so you are welding from bottom side up,not much of a pitch to the point you are now welding a vertical,this will be just enough to ensure while welding the slag does not get in front of your weld while welding & causing slag pockets in it that you will never see unless grinding out or cut the welds itself

most of the time when im welding something simlilar in your case,,,,i use a MIG gun to fill the root first,,grind it all clean & straight & flat so i can weld a hot pass with 3/32 E7018 until it is filled,this ensures i have 100% penetration on the root pass

Pardon my dumb questions, but what I was calling a "fish" plate is pretty much what you were describing as a "diamond" plate. Are they kinda the same thing? I was planning on boxing the inside of the C rails individually, and then putting the diamond plates between the two rails. I wanted to do the same thing on the front side as well. I have a 10 inch overlap so I have plenty of metal to weld together. I have the two pcs. of frame bolted together now, and they are rock solid. When I turned the frame up on its side so I could weld everything flat nothing moved. I thought the weight of the back of the frame would make it sag due to the frame sections being bolted, but they are still true so the bolts in the frame must be holding pretty well. The all thread that is through the frame is just because the top section (rear) was a little (3/8") wider than the top, I guess it twisted a little when I relocated the crossmembers.
CHAZ

....good advice Classickustoms, & no your not going to cause me to start a 'battle of advice thread' because I certainly don't claim to know it all, plus aren't two heads better than one???
Yes Hoof, diamond plate & fish plate is the same thing.... Bill

I got 1# of 7014 3/32 electrodes to try. They go really fast, but they look nice and smooth when they are finished. I ran them on the same current (90 amps) as the 1/8 inch 6013's and it seemed to work pretty well. What I am thinking now is I could run the joint with the 6013 electrode, and then chip it and grind it down a little and finish it off with the 7014? That would be just the outside of the frame where I have the deep v formed by the bevels of the frame.

Now, for the other welds I need. What is the correct procedure for "boxing plates?" I know to get them where I need them, and then tack them so they stay. If I have the plates flush when I weld them the weld will stick up proud and the fish plates won't lay flat against the newly boxed rails will they? Should I bevel the boxing plates and rails so there is a v to fill with weld?

CHAZ

.....Cool Chaz your on a roll ..... yep that'll work, 6013 root pass. clean it up & then run 7014 for a cover pass.
If your putting fish plates {diamond plate} on then; Grind the weld down smooth {don't overgrind} with the frame so the fish plate lays flat. No don't 'v' grove the fish plates or existing frame that's overkill without a doubt..... I'm not familar with 7014 but if the welding store recommened it it'll be great..... The numbers on the rod mean; the '70' is 70,000 pounds of tensil strength. The '1' is the possition {'1' being all possition, '2' is flat & horz.}, the '4' is the material that the coating is made out of. '4' I believe is an iron coating??? or is it still a low hydrogen rod as 7018 & 7016 is??? or both???.... {It must be similar to 7024 which they use in the ship yards a lot. On 7024 the slag just rolls up & off of your bead as you weld}. And remember not to weld fish plates on with ANY vert. welds. In other words the welds that hold the fish plates on will be at a 45 degree angle to the frame.
Woops forgot to talk about boxing the frame; I'd just cut the pieces to go just inside of the frame. And I wouldn't run 6013 & 7014 on this. Overkill again. Just one or the other. Just set the plate into the frame the width of the weld. A 1/4" or so. That's the way I'D do it.... You could also cut the boxing plates so you had a 'v' grove {at the top & bottom} to weld them in, but I wouldn't do this. Seems to me as if this is A LOT of extra, un-necessary work..... Good luck Bill

.....Chaz, not sure if your confussed on this or not but; a fish plate {they also call this diamond plating}is a plate that you put over an existing weld to re-inforce it. This is a piece of steel that is cut in a diamond like shape, or can be a square piece that you put on at a 45 degree angle to the frame. You would grind the weld that you are covering so the plate would lay flat on the frame. You don't want any 45 degree welds on this. Re-read what Classickustoms wrote in #4 suggestion in his post.........
Diamond plate is steel that has a diamond patern on it. This pattern keeps you from slipping if you walk on it when it gets wet. They use it on steps that are on 18 Wheeler Trucks {plus lots of other things}. Nothing to do with fish plating a frame OTHER than the fact that fish plating a frame can ALSO be called diamond plating a frame.....
Boxing plates are what go inside of your existing frame for support {this I know you know}......
I'm not sure if this was possibably confussing you or not.... just wanted to make sure..... bill