Thread: running on hydrogen gas

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Interesting topic for this day, the 71st anniversary of the Hindenburg disaster.

never thought of that

Scam beware
http://www.anti-guru-movement.com/Water4Gas.Exposed.htm

Just as a side reference, the number one country the US imports oil from is Canada, and Mexico is number two. Since Canada has 90% of their population massed along the northern US border, can we claim Imminent invasion and do a pre-emptive attack? =)

My old grandfather, who would be over 100 now if he were still alive, told me about the "Great Potato Bug Scam"---(this was in about 1912 or 1913). There was a terrible blight of potato bugs that year, and nothing seemed to stop them. This was in the pre-pesticide era, and for a lot of small farmers, if your potato crop failed, your family went hungry the following winter. Just when they thought all was lost, a young, well dressed fellow showed up---came into town on the train. He was selling a SURE KILLER FOR POTATO BUGS.!!! GUARANTEED TO WORK.!!! This was a small package, that sold for 25 cents, and the wrapper was covered in mystical symbols, with a big warning "DO NOT OPEN UNTILL FULL MOON FOR BEST RESULTS". All the rural folk rushed to buy them, and the young fellow took the next train out of town. The "full of the moon" came, and everyone anxiously tore open their MIRACLE POTATO BUG KILLER. and there inside was two little blocks of wood, with the instructions---PLACE POTATO BUG ON BLOCK "A--PLACE BLOCK "B" ON TOP OF POTATO BUG---SQUEEZE HARD!!! Times have changed quite a bit since 1912, but there are still people around willing to spend their money on a MIRACLE POTATO BUG KILLER. (or hydrogen powered automobile).

Originally Posted by stovens

Scam beware
http://www.anti-guru-movement.com/Water4Gas.Exposed.htm

Did you notice at the very end of the link you sent debunking the water 4 gas, That guy is trying to sell you something also. Face it someone is always trying to scam something somewhere. Another quote from someone else here says, every invention has already been made and nothing else can be made, Thats probably what someone told Bill Gates oneday, and you should see his house. Dont be doubting thomases just yet.

As far as why dont automakers use it if its so good, They have never really needed to make something like this before because they were turning a profit. I bet R&D teams are now looking into this stuff now though. I work for 2 major automotive companies under the same roof. One company will allow a rev nut as a replacement for a stripped, missing or broken fastener, and the other will not because the have personally not R&D'd the process. So the car must be tore down and welded, and if it cant be reached they scrap the entire car over a stripped bolt.

Just to set the records straight, I'm not saying that hydrogen isn't a viable fuel. What I am saying is those little jam-jar water bubblers are a cruel joke. They do not work, they have never worked, and they never will work! Anybody trying to sell you on the crackpot idea that you can make hydrogen using your car electrical system and get better gas mileage is either a fool or a crook. My vote goes to crook.

Automotive companies ARE investigating hydrogen fueled cars...GM has been particularly involved in fuel cell research for at least a decade. Auto companies have no incentive NOT to release such technology if it is viable...think of the advantage that a company would have if it had a zero emissions car that ran on water!! However, one small mountain is in the way.... the second law of thermodynamics. Room temperature electrolysis is terribly inefficient....the energy in results in somewhere near 40%-70% energy out. Not a good trade.

Any time there is a statement regarding "the auto companies (or oil companies) are suppressing the technology", then you know that it is a scam. Scams always have a disclaimer about those knowledgeable in whatever industry and those experts are trying to hide something. This plays on a natural distrust by people who dont understand science (or who slept thru 8th grade). However, try it.... what can you lose? $50 and a rusty intake tract isnt a big outlay. It's kinda like the science fair only the exhibitors are a little past junior high.

mike in tucson

It's funny, because locally they were hyping Hydrogen powered cars as clean burners. The problem is the amount of energy it takes to produce hydrogen gas is tremendous. Something like two to four times the amount of natural gas for hydrogen gas to be created for fuel. No jelly jar is going to solve this.
This same scam was out in the 70's during that oil crisis. You could buy the exact same setup from poplular mechanics magazine adds, right next to the x-ray glasses!
Now the home brewing kits they sold, there was a viable fuel source for the average minor!

Originally Posted by brianrupnow

Sounds like the great "Potato bug Cure" to me---

I ain't a Canadian, Bran, but I am old enough to be aware of the famous "potato bug" scam!

The same cure supposedly worked on our big Texas Red Ants.

Jim

Do not get caught up in the effeciency of hydrogen,the purpose is to not pollute and use less oil.
Who cares if I have to put 150 gallons of water in it a day....or if 50 percent of energy generated goes back into re-generation............its water ...good cheap clean water.
Effeciency is a mute point when the fuel source is almost free and unlimited.......you can bet they will dole it out one gallon at a time{with a massive tax} ,not convert it on board like should be done.
Just keep in mind ,like i mentioned before ,there will be no one source as a replacement for gas ,it will be many different sources to replace the one.

"or if 50 percent of energy generated goes back into re-generation............its water ...good cheap clean water."

IF it were 50 percent of the energy generated! It is really right now, put in 100 energy units and get back 40 to 70 energy units....it is a net loss process using electrolysis.

Give me a dollar and I will give you back 50 cents...see how long you play that game!

Originally Posted by shawnlee28

Do not get caught up in the effeciency of hydrogen,the purpose is to not pollute and use less oil.
Who cares if I have to put 150 gallons of water in it a day....or if 50 percent of energy generated goes back into re-generation............its water ...good cheap clean water.
Effeciency is a mute point when the fuel source is almost free and unlimited.......you can bet they will dole it out one gallon at a time{with a massive tax} ,not convert it on board like should be done.
Just keep in mind ,like i mentioned before ,there will be no one source as a replacement for gas ,it will be many different sources to replace the one.

Shawnlee
It unfortunately isn't just water producing hydrogen right now. You need an alternate energy source to split the water molecule, like electricity or natural gas. It takes twice the amount of natural gas to make half the amount of hydrogen. To put it simpler, inorder to convert water to 20 gallons of hydrogen fuel, it would take approximately 40 gallons of natural gas to supply the energy to convert water to hydrogen.
California was promoting Hydrogen powered cars, because they are clean burning as you know. The problem was where do you get the hydrogen from and how much does it cost. a friend of mine works for the california energy commision. She was furious over the hydrogen hype, because it doesn't use less energy, it uses twice as much. If you just used 20 gallons of natural gas to drive with, you'd save 20 gallons of natural gas to drive the same distance as you would with hydrogen. People are working on using solar photovoltaic cells to make hydrogen fuel sources, but it is not very efficient(i.e. it costs more to produce the hydrogen, than to use traditional fuel sources. As gas goes up, alternative fuels will be more competitive, but unless technology leaps foward, we are going to be paying higher prices at the pumps, and cars like the Volkswagen Rabbit will be very popular again!

A neat bit of trivia....just recently, it was demonstrated that a particular solar cell design would output MORE energy than it took to make the solar cell....just recently!

Before that, a solar cell was a net energy loss over its life. The new designs are still in their infancy but they are coming. However, the new designs are still not to the point where it takes X energy to make them and they put out 10X the energy over their lifetime.

Think about it folks... "energy is neither created nor destroyed" Energy can only be converted from one form to another

There is a totally new way of extracting hydrogen from coal and natural gas, other than electrically "cracking" water. The new method uses a membrane that will allow only hydrogen molecules to pass through it. If anyone is interested, go to your internet search engine and type in "hydrogen" and "membrane".