Thread: 49 International kb2

Tweet

Hello to everyone, first off let me say this site is a class act from what I have seen! Now on to the good stuff. I bought a 49 International kb2 this week and have been pondering what I want to do with it as far as putting it back to org or make a rod out if it. Well the more intelegent side of my brain won that battle now its on to how to do it. I have seen through searches online of using S-10 or blazer frames. I have never done a frame swap so this is why Im asking some experts. I have a buddy that I work with that has a fresh 360 with a 727 transmission that I was thinking of putting down in it, curious if this would be a good candidate for this truck. I am planning on driving this truck daily and hoping for enough power to pin me to the seat also. Let me give you some background from me, I am a F-15 fighter aircraft mechanic, been in the Airforce for little over 10yr so I am not green to mechanics, but I have very little knowlege about modifying vehicals, however I am always willing to give anything the ol' college try. So now I will turn it over to the pros to school me up on the truck. I deffinatly appreciate any information that anyone has! Thanks again, glad I found this fourm!

The 360 won't fit the S10 chassis without serious pan mods. There's nothing wrong with the IHC axle, and the 360 will have lots of clearance in the stock setup. Disc brakes and a 4WD power steering box will make it a pleasure to drive, and the axle can be dropped by any axle shop.
If you're really stuck on independent front suspension, I'd try a Volare X-member. Not a fan of MII crap. Too light for a truck, too light for a Pinto!!

I can't help you with the tech but I can say welcome to CHR, and thanks for serving, and protecting us so we can do what we all love to do. Now dig in and get that project started.

Richard

I'll take the contrarian point of view. Yeah, like I've never been contrary.

I like using OEM stuff whenever I can. The factory has well-paid engineers and mega-buck computing systems to figure everything out so that it will work well together and I like taking advantage of that, doing a frame swap and using all the parts that I can from a donor.

After doing a little research, I've decided that I might use a Dakota donor truck for this project. The Gen I was made from '87 to '96. '91 to '96 used a 318 V8 as an option, so everything would be set up for the "A" motor of your choice, 273, 318, 340 or 360. I like the Gen I because of the fairly narrow track, 60.7" front and 59.5" rear. Everything got wider in the Gen II truck. Depending on the configuration of the Gen I Dakota, three different wheelbases were used, 112.0", 124.0" and 131.0. By the way, these trucks came with power rack and pinion steering. Another thing of interest is that these trucks came in 2WD and 4WD. So, if you wanted a 4WD International, you could certainly have it. Before removing any parts from the donor, roll it onto a scale and weigh just the front axle weight. Write it down. Now, weigh just the rear axle weight. Write it down. You will need this information later if you need to change springs.

If a guy were going to use the entire frame intact, he might get lucky and find that one of these three different wheelbases were exactly right for the International. If not, use the frame that is longer than the International and section it between the cab and differential, then have the driveshaft shortened or order a custom driveshaft. What I would do is to jack up the International on one side, remove the wheels and tires, then lower the body back to stock ride height and place jackstands under the frame. I'd roll the front and rear tires forward and backward in the wheelwells until I got the "eyeball" that I wanted and measure the wheelbase between the centers of the wheels. That's the figure I would use for the final wheelbase to build the truck on. Once I got the eyeball right, I might drop a line on a plumbbob from the center of the wheel to the ground and make a mark. Drop a line from some point on the body and make a mark. Measure between the points and write it down. Do this front and rear. Take the measurement off the BODY, not the fender or the bed. You'll need this info later.

The thing with using an OEM chassis is that everything is engineered to work together. What you don't want to do is decide after it's built, you want the front lower or the rear lower.... or both.... and have to dink with cheezy dropped spindles or cut the front coils and change the suspension geometry from "as designed". If you want to drop the truck "in the weeds", then use only the front and rear frame clips from the Dakota and retain the under-cab International frame section. Weld the three together at ride height and call it good. If I were going to use the entire Dakota frame in one piece (even if I sectioned it to get the wheelbase right), I would use whatever scrap pieces of material I needed to use to graft the Dakota frame rails to the frame rail holes in the International cab. This ain't rocket surgery. (yeah, I know that ain't the right way to say it, but I like it better).

Here's how I would do the "in the weeds" build.
With your donor truck sitting level, put an inclinometer on the lower control arms and write down the angle. (assuming you're using a 2-wheel drive donor). This will insure that when the truck is finished, the angle will be the same and all the suspension geometry will be stock. Use the inclinometer on some part of the frame or spring hat inside the engine compartment to find the fore-aft angle at that point. Write it down. With the front clip cut off at the firewall and sitting loose, disassemble and remove the springs and shocks. Re-assemble without springs and with Allthread, washers, nuts and whatever it takes to span the Allthread where the shocks mounted to hold the whole mess together at the control arm angle you found when you put the inclinometer on the lower control arms when the truck was complete. Chock up the clip at the fore-aft attitude you found with the inclinometer. With the cab and center frame clip positioned at the height and attitude you want as a finished product, roll the Dakota clip into place and connect the Dakota clip to the International middle section. Use your gas axe to cut pieces off the Dakota/International frame clips where they interfere with each other as you roll the Dakota frame clip into position. Position the center of the front wheel relative to the body using the dimension you wrote down when you originally dropped a line. Of course, you'll want to fish-plate the connections to assure integrity of the graft. I'm sure you understand this. The resulting connection might look somewhat like a "Z" as viewed from the side. This is called Z-ing the frame.

Same thing in the rear. Measure the top of the differential tube to the frame or frame member with the Dakota complete and sitting on level ground. Write it down. You will have to remove the springs and fabricate some contrivance to hold the differential in place at that measurement. I might use some U-bolts and scrap plate to bolt to the housing, then weld a couple of pieces of thick-wall tubing to the scrap plate, coming off the plate in a "V" to bolt or tack the other ends of the tubing to the frame of frame member. Just something to hold the differential in place relative to the frame at ride height while you position it to mate up with the rear stubs of the International frame. If I were using a 4WD donor, I'd use the same V-bar fixtures front and rear.
I think I would also find some new cab/frame insulators and install them on the center section of the International before I started mating up the center section to the frame clips. I also might box the center section of the International frame for strength, moving the boxing sections into the middle of the frame to leave a "ledge" on the inside of the frame rail for running electrical wiring, brake and fuel lines. This assumes that the International frame is a "C" section frame at that point under the cab. If it's a full box design to begin with, then disregard the boxing information.

I hope all this makes sense to you. If not, ask questions and we'll try to expand on it. If I were looking for a donor like this, I might try finding a truck with a fragged motor and/or transmission to make the purchase price more attractive. The one thing that would be MANDATORY in my opinion, would be a clear Carfax. You don't want to start with a frame that's been tweaked in an accident. I might even take a tape with me, crawl under and measure on an "X" between points underneath to insure that the frame if square.

At any rate, when all done, it will be a simple task to order replacement chassis/steering/brake parts. Just call up your favorite auto parts place and tell you want a whatchamacallit for a 19XX Dakota. No hassle. All cool.

If you can find a V8 donor, you will also have the advantage of Chrysler Corporation having installed the correct front and rear suspension to take the weight and power and a beefy V8 rear differential as well. How good does it get? Also with a V8 donor, you'll get the power steering pump and all the brackets to work on your 360 "A" motor. Graft the Dakota pedals and power brake booster to the International firewall. You might even want to use some or all of the interior parts from the Dakota. Seats, dash, whatever. I would definitely use the Dakota steering column. It will bolt right up to the steering rack and all is good, as long as the length will work out in the International cab.

You will also have the V8 cooling system in place and positioned properly for your 360 motor. It will be a minor hassle to mount the hood latch and front fender mounts onto the Dakota core support, but you'll figure it out. Same with the bed mounting. You'll figure it out.

Oh, and one last point if doing the 3-part swap, when you still have the donor truck all together, measure from a point on the upper control arm back to the firewall. You don't want to get the front clip all welded in and then discover that you have engine/firewall interference with the International firewall. Also, pay attention to the configuration of the Dakota firewall and take into consideration how the International firewall compares. Even if you have to screw up the "eyeball" a little, it will be better to move the clip a little forward from where the ideal is in order to avoid having to do firewall surgery. Also, pay attention to the clearance between the top of the transmission and the transmission tunnel on the International cab. You may have to adjust the ride height of the cab a little to make sure you don't have to do any surgery on the cab floor for transmission/bellhousing clearance.

If, after the truck is completed, you find that the weight is different enough between what the Dakota weighed and the International weighs and the control arm angle or differential tube to frame is a little off either way, you can order different springs to bring everything into spec by using these guys as a source. If they don't have what you need in stock, they can make it quickly. Just tell 'em what you need to do. Give 'em the original front and rear weights from the donor and the front and rear weights now and tell 'em how much lower/higher you want to go to get back to original on the control arm angles on the front and/or housing to frame measurement in the rear.
http://www.eatonsprings.com/

Well, there you go Sergeant, not for the faint of heart, but a rewarding result for anyone who wants a '49 International that rides, handles and brakes like an OEM late model truck and looks good doin' it.

techinspector1, That's the way to get a new guy started good job for giving out so much info, I just might save this post seeing that I have a few projects.

Richard

I've added quite a bit to the original post, you may want to go back and review it. It has been several years since I did a frame swap and as I think about it, I remember stuff that should be included in my answer to the Sergeant.

Matter of fact, here's something else. I'll just add it here. There are headers available for the '91-'96 Dakota V8. Hooker makes 'em, part #5803, 1 5/8" primaries, long-tube. These are REAL tuned headers, not shorties. problem is, this is a frame swap and there's no way of knowing how the headers will work with the Intnational firewall and center frame portion, so here's how I might go about it to make sure they would work with the 360 in the International. I'd weld a piece of 2" X 2" square tubing on the bottom of the Dakota clip crossmember and extend it toward the rear of the clip. I'd build a transmission tailshaft mount on it and install a caster wheel on the bottom of the tubing, so that the whole clip rolls on the front wheels/tires from the Dakota and the caster wheel at the rear of the 2 x 2. You'd want to install the caster wheel so that the fore/aft tilt of the clip was the same as factory so that the front suspension geometry (caster) would be unaffected and install the transmission mount so that the motor/transmission has a 3 degree tilt to the rear. I'd mount the motor and trans I was going to eventually use in the swap into the clip and install the headers on the motor. This way, you could roll the clip into place for connecting to the International frame mid-section and be assured that the engine/firewall, transmission/tunnel and header/frame/body clearance would be good to go and that the motor/trans would have the correct 3 degree back tilt to them. This assumes, of course, that your workspace floor is level.

I tried to add this to post 4, but the forum rules for a 10,000 character limit won't let me add it. It is unclear to me how I can continue to post on this subject and theoretically run up 100,000 or more characters in total, but can't complete my thoughts in one post only.

I had a '47 KB2, it sat on a '71 Dodge Power Wagon 4X4 chassis with a Dana 70 posi front axle & a Dana 60 posi rear axle, PS, PB, tilt wheel, 360/727 , I bought it already on the chassis, but after a couple yrs I tore it apart and rebuilt everything. It was a easy thing to put on the Power Wagon frame. I made it a filp front clip, and a pull out floor in the box, tilt steering, bar graft gauges, chrome exhaust stacks, and it sat on 35" Goodyears without lifting it. It could move your house over if you needed it to, and it was a fun truck. I drove it every day for about 7 yrs.

Have fun which ever way you go!

Pat

And of course I'll take the opposing point of view, Richard. I would leave both the S-10 and the Dakota frames wherever they are and go with an IFS setup with a front crossmember made specifically for your truck.... Then in the rear, a 9" Ford rear end narrowed to fit your specific wheel and tire combination with coilovers and a triangulated 4 bar suspension system.... I've put the IFS packages under everything from 30's coupe to 70's pickups and have never had a bit of trouble with them. The good one's use the same geometry as the Mustang II's, but then build them with DOM tubing for control arms, heavy duty ball joints, 11" disc brakes, rack and pinion steering, and all the other goodies. With this setup, you retain your stock frame which is designed for the truck. The body parts, radiator support, etc. all re-attach easily, and the best part you can make it as low as you want, and still retain the stock appearance of the truck!!!!

WOW! not overwhelmed with the project at hand, but the great info that you all have given me is so great I am overwhelmed at that! and ford2custom it is my pleasure to do what I do and techinspector1 now I see why you said you couldnt do it over PMs! thank you and Ill keep everyone updated with progress and pics! Thanks again!

I'm no Dakota expert, but I believe 91 was the first year the 318 was offered and 91's have a weird 6 lug bolt pattern. I know this because I have one.

Originally Posted by NTFDAY

I'm no Dakota expert, but I believe 91 was the first year the 318 was offered and 91's have a weird 6 lug bolt pattern. I know this because I have one.

Yep, my research says that the 318 was used from '91 to '99 and the 360 was used '98 to '03. The '97-up Gen II uses a wider track though and I don't think if would look as nice as the Gen I on the old International. I couldn't find the front and rear track for the International, but I'm guessing that the Gen I Dakota would be a close match. If it turned out a little wide or a little narrow, wheels with a different backset could be used to match up to the International track a little closer and position the tires in the wheelwells width-wise a little better.

Always thought one of those cute little Dakota 2WD extended cab pickups would make a good home for either a 440 six pack or a 413 Max Wedge!!! Maybe even a hemi, but then I sure wouldn't want to overpower the thing!!!!

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

And of course I'll take the opposing point of view, Richard. I would leave both the S-10 and the Dakota frames wherever they are and go with an IFS setup with a front crossmember made specifically for your truck.... Then in the rear, a 9" Ford rear end narrowed to fit your specific wheel and tire combination with coilovers and a triangulated 4 bar suspension system.... I've put the IFS packages under everything from 30's coupe to 70's pickups and have never had a bit of trouble with them. The good one's use the same geometry as the Mustang II's, but then build them with DOM tubing for control arms, heavy duty ball joints, 11" disc brakes, rack and pinion steering, and all the other goodies. With this setup, you retain your stock frame which is designed for the truck. The body parts, radiator support, etc. all re-attach easily, and the best part you can make it as low as you want, and still retain the stock appearance of the truck!!!!

Cheap Dave, I'm very, very cheap. I would rather call it frugal, but Sharon says CHEAP. I suspect that by the time you cobbled up the front and rear suspension the way you outlined and set up a 9", you could build 3 or 4 Dakota/Internationals for the same money. It would probably take more labor to do it my way, but remember, I'm CHEAP and my labor rate is very attractive to me. Then there is the advantage of replacing OEM parts down the road with one phone call to the local parts house. Dave, you know I love you like a brother, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one.

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Always thought one of those cute little Dakota 2WD extended cab pickups would make a good home for either a 440 six pack or a 413 Max Wedge!!! Maybe even a hemi, but then I sure wouldn't want to overpower the thing!!!!

Well, it is a mid-sized truck, not a mini, so I suspect it could hold up well to a larger V8. The engine bay is larger on the '91 to '96 Gen I than it is on the '87 to '90 Gen I, according to what I read about them.

Originally Posted by techinspector1

Cheap Dave, I'm very, very cheap. I would rather call it frugal, but Sharon says CHEAP. I suspect that by the time you cobbled up the front and rear suspension the way you outlined and set up a 9", you could build 3 or 4 Dakota/Internationals for the same money. It would probably take more labor to do it my way, but remember, I'm CHEAP and my labor rate is very attractive to me. Then there is the advantage of replacing OEM parts down the road with one phone call to the local parts house. Dave, you know I love you like a brother, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one.

It is no doubt a lot cheaper in parts.....no argument there.... Guess I'm just getting spoiled, the IFS packages we use at the shop are sooooooo nice and all new parts (other then a reman rack).

When installed correctly, the grafted front suspension does work fine......but I've seen a whole lot more cobble jobs then I ever have good jobs..... Also as you mentioned, the method chosen has a lot to do with the builder's skill and the amount of time he can (or is willing) to put into the project and have it come out right.... From a shop standpoint if a customer is paying the bills the majority of the time a made to fit IFS package comes out costing less.... However, for an at home craftsman with the time, knowledge, ability, and equipment to do the upgrade correctly, grafting from a donor will cost less....