Thread: EPA approves more ethanol in gas

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I used to get pure ethanol.
Thought the floor of the shop looked soft and comfy, figure I'd take a looksee. Wife thought I was dead four hours later.

Might as well put it in the fuel tank seeing how I can't do anything else with it.
Guess we'll just need to redesign our fuel systems.

Drew

As I mentioned I figured this was coming, so on the current project I'm doing a few things to hopefully help;

no sock on the fuel pickup 'cause I don't know how the higher blend will affect that.

constant fuel return to prevent heat build up in the fuel lines,

A brass float in the carb, (hopefully the tip on the carb neddle will live or I'll end up going to a steel neddle and seat).

Here is a Bulletin from SEMA SAN with more details

http://echo.bluehornet.com/hostedema...03221F8B00D693

SEMA SAN is a free action network that all car enthusiasts would benefit from joining. They keep us up to date and help rally support or opposition to the benefit of our hobby.

Pat

aside from the lack of fuel economy we need to:
1. Replace fuel lines to something alcohol resistant like SS
2. same with any fuel tank switching valves
3. Needle and seat in carb
4. Need a real time Pyrometer or Air/Fuel Ratio gauge
5. Fuel cooler (I'm thinking an old external transmission cooler from the junkyard. Could mount it in the incoming flow or in a return line if you have one, we used to do this with Detroit 2strokes anyway).

not an insurmountable problem, but certainly something to keep in mind for any future builds.
Drew

Originally Posted by Stu Cool

Here is a Bulletin from SEMA SAN with more details

http://echo.bluehornet.com/hostedema...03221F8B00D693

SEMA SAN is a free action network that all car enthusiasts would benefit from joining. They keep us up to date and help rally support or opposition to the benefit of our hobby.

Pat

I don't know how many of you belong to the SEMA Action Network (SAN) but I have for quite some time. They have been very effective in defeating stupid and irresponsible new laws introduced in legislatures throughout the fifty states that negatively impact car enthusiasts. I would encourage anyone to join that is not a member.

Originally Posted by Louey

Dave, are you one of the corn stalks in the corn field ?

Wanna explain what the heck you mean by that?????

So, now we should all blame each other, blame the farmers, Republicans blame the Democrats, Democrats blame the Republicans and ad nauseum....

Ethanol isn't the problem, global food shortage isn't the problem, the dang idiots that folks keep electing to go to Washington over and over again are the problem!!!! But as long as they can keep us fighting amongst ourselves they'll be able to save their jobs, their health care, their insurance, and their retirement!!!!!!

Vote out ALL INCUMBENTS, send the buggers a wake up call!!! Take our country back from the damn thievin' politicians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh well, forget it, probably too late anyway, might as well argue.

I hereby blame Bush, father and son, for everything that is wrong in the world.

Originally Posted by Louey

Sure, I'll answer. That's like you can't see the tree for the forest.
A race car is not the issue. Mix the fuel anyway you want to in it.
The everyday runner is what is being effected here. Not to mention, all the old cars that are handed down from Grandpa, and Grandma. All this will have to be changed, updated to run this BS.
So, although it's good for your friends race setup, it's not for everyone else.
Yes, Nov is close now. Do unto them, as they are doing unto us, is the word.
Ethanol is the problem in older cars, and in our builds at home. Most people cannot run out and buy a new one just to please their pocket book. Which is what they all want you to do. Changing the fuel, is forcing this on us all. Or spending to get things changed. Now that is fact. Plus, the mileage sucks with that stuff. Use more, get less, same price or higher. Greed makes those guys and gals nuts up there. Plus, they do not know anything about mechanics. They just buy a new car instead. What better way to get a cash flow.
I joke, you come back with sarcasum. Good for you. Blame anyone you want to.

Well gee, does this mean that I should quit running it in my old shop truck like I have been for the last 5 years too??? All I had to do to it was a bit of carb work and change the plugs..... Lots of us have figured out how to make E-85 work on the street without spending a fortune and saving lots of bucks on the price of fuel to boot, a bit over 50 cents per gallon...

My point is, I can run 12 to 1 CR or better on the street, and buy my fuel at the pump for considerably less then the price of cheap regular....if that makes me an idiot, then so be it!!!!

20+ years ago 10% ethanol started showing up around here... Some whined and complained, the rest of us learned how to make it work.......guess we'll do the same when it goes to 15% ethanol, too.

If you don't believe me and want to see the dyno results of what E-85 can do in a hot rod or race car, there's a shop in Watertown, SD converts cars to E-85 a bunch... Might want to examine what can be done with this fuel before you bad mouth it too much!!!!!!

Here's a link to the shop in Watertown, SD that does some really superb work with ethanol powered cars. Thought some of you might want to get some info on it---if it's here to stay, then might as well make it work!!!!

http://www.dynotuneusa.com/

Whatever you say, Louey.... though I would like to see some real data that sez 8 fillups will kill the engine.... voids the warranty?????? Far as I know, there is no E-15 at the pump yet, except on the select your blend pumps some stations have..... so, as mentioned, sure would like to see some proof on your stats....

I also run it in the Mustang on the street, 12.5CR. Put some in Sunday afternoon. The 104 octane E-85 was 54 cents per gallon less then 88 low octane regular.......

By the way, I spent $200 bucks to change the carb on the drag car to E-85, included 2 pulls on the dyno at Andy's.... I'd say a very worthwhile investment....

Ya know what Loey, I don't really give a rip if you believe me or not. There's Andy's link.....check it out...Call him.... Ask him what he can do with E-85.... Ask him if the Ford boys from Madison put 500 horse to the ground with a 460, .030 bore, and a custom grind cam..... Do some research, check out the octane rating on E-85. Our home blended E-90 for racing is 106 octane and cost us $2.15 a gallon to mix..... E-85 summer blend at the pump has been averaging 103 octane which is more then enough to support 12.5 CR.....on a properly built engine with the correct components.....

After reading a few more articles on this it really seems this is no more than the typical election year crap given that the it’s currently up to the service station whether to carry the product or not. If there is no demand, there will be no product.

It’s what will happen in the future that I wonder about. Now that the door is open how long will it take for the EPA to rule that E15 (or even higher concentrations in the future) will not hurt older cars, or that the number of cars that it is harmful to is too insignificant to worry about.

As far as the effects here is what my personal experience has been. I live about 75 miles south of Tucson and all the gasoline sold at the stations here is trucked in from there. As Tucson is one of the 2 areas in the state that requires emissions testing, several years ago it was mandated that during the winter months only oxygenated could be sold. Rather that carry a blend for Tucson and non-blended for out laying areas, everybody got E10 in the winter time.

That first winter I was keep very busy with things like fuel filters and carburetors (primarily needles and seats). A large number of carburetors I had rebuilt the preceding year had to be redone because of the needles were not compatible with even E 10 (some more than once). I ended up eating those jobs……that was money out of my pocket. Eventually the aftermarket caught up and the needle tips were made compatible for the fuel AT a 10% LEVEL.

Fast forward to last summer. We started getting E10 all year round. All of the sudden cars I never had a problem with suddenly developed vapor lock and heat soak problems…….let me tell you how much fun it is to sit on the side of the road on a 105 degree day while the fuel system cools.

Now as far as the performance gains that could be had with ethanol……. that only seems to apply provided the engine compression is raised to take advantage of a higher octane fuel. The problem lays in the fact that the octane DOES NOT go up with E10 (and I doubt it will with E15) because they just start with a lower grade base stock. You don’t see an octane increase at the local pumps until you hit E85.

Ok I could build a higher compression E85 only engine…..I’d love to except…… the last I looked there were only 17 Stations in AZ that sold E85. Yes there is 1 in the local area, so it would work great as long as I never drive farther than say a couple of hundred miles away from home (and always start out with a full tank). A cross country trip from where I’m at to say Ill (a trip I usually make once a year) would not be possible for an E85 exclusive vehicle.

As far as the cheaper cost……that seems like a rob Peter to pay Paul thing to me. Without the government subsidies and mandates for oxygenated fuel any alcohol blended fuel becomes priced out of the market.

Yes, we adjusted to unleaded gas, and we adjusted to E10 and I have no doubt we will adjust again to whatever the new reality becomes. It doesn’t mean the new reality is a good idea.

What is the octane rating on your E-10??? Sounds like your distributors are horsin' things around significantly!!!! E-10 here is always mid-way between low grade regular and premium, usually 88 octane (checked it with the old hydrometer a number of times).

Good morning Dave, all the fuel sold here is E 10, Grades are labeled 87, 89 and 91. That is EVERY Station.

Wow, almost sounds like the problem would be with the base fuel before the ethanol is added, Mike.... All the weird problems you're encountering with carbs has never been an issue around here with E-10--and as I stated been running it in a very wide variety of cars for better then 20 years!!!! Any of the problems with ethanol came when the stations were dumping ethanol fuel into their old tanks, and the ethanol loosened the crud inside the tanks.......

Shame on no E-85 around there, sure is a blast running a bunch of compression again in a street toy!!!! There's an ethanol plant about 15 miles from here...rumor has it that occasionally a drum or two of 100% disappears.... Our "home brew" E-90 does better then 106 octane!!!!