Thread: Pontiac 400 Stroked to 407 Engine Spec Sheet (correct numbers) Input / Advice Wanted

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Good luck on your new shop!!! I was self-employed most of my working years, and most of the time I had a jerk for a boss!!!! It's a lot of extra work and is a constant learning process! Taxes, insurance, and regulations can often be tougher to deal with then the most irate customer you ever had nightmares about!!!

Just a suggestion, until you have the equipment and knowledge to do all the engine machining and assembly, I'd leave it up to a competent engine shop.....Main reason being that if you touch the engine last, guess who the customer is going to hold responsible for any problems with the engine??? I never thought it a good idea to warranty someone else's work!!!! I much preferred to let the customer do his own dealing on an engine, I was willing to make some suggestions and answer questions, but that's about it.!!!!! IMO a new business is going to have enough start up difficulties and expense without assuming the liability for someone else's work!!!!

Good luck on the new venture!

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Good luck on your new shop!!! I was self-employed most of my working years, and most of the time I had a jerk for a boss!!!! It's a lot of extra work and is a constant learning process! Taxes, insurance, and regulations can often be tougher to deal with then the most irate customer you ever had nightmares about!!!

Just a suggestion, until you have the equipment and knowledge to do all the engine machining and assembly, I'd leave it up to a competent engine shop.....Main reason being that if you touch the engine last, guess who the customer is going to hold responsible for any problems with the engine??? I never thought it a good idea to warranty someone else's work!!!! I much preferred to let the customer do his own dealing on an engine, I was willing to make some suggestions and answer questions, but that's about it.!!!!! IMO a new business is going to have enough start up difficulties and expense without assuming the liability for someone else's work!!!!

Good luck on the new venture!

Appreciate all the info. Its been a lot of squeezing this first year. Where to invest money in where not to. Which stuff to buy n not get burned the usual. Thing is I hate out sourcing work on stuff I'm perfectly capable of doing in house. I do have the background and equipment to take care of the assembly. I didn't just decide one day to toss my hat in the ring n start building motors that said I don't have the facility yet in order to do the machining in house. Were a one man band here and very limited space . Course that's exactly why we gotta move. I need a bigger space cause I do have clients who want work done but I'm just fresh out ta room for any other equipment . I don't want to build one of them mega shops either I really wanna stay small and focus on the quality not quantity. I like working from home as it is now and don't want to get into a situation with land lords and all that noise. Maybe pickup up a couple guys along the way but never more than 4. It'll be a tough one to swallow to not do any motor building . I've always taken pride in my attention to detail. But if the risk vs reward isn't there I can set ego aside until we're fully capable of doing everything in house. I sure do appreciate the insight . Just a guy wanting to continue building a solid reputation n put a lil food on the table. Wife n I sacrificed quite a bit last couple years so hopefully we can keep growing as more people get exposed to my work. Thanks again Dave you gave me a lot to think about. -Tony

Pat and I can't talk about EGOs--------------------------

I got a whole lot of respect for you guys and your experience . Just love sitting around talking motors and learning new ways of doing things. Took me a long time before the ole flathead guys started coming around that'd open up about trick setups. Just wanna contribute to keeping this hot rod world alive!

i do not know in your parts but here were i am at machine shop hourly rate is as much the same as 1989 .but the cost of the machines even used are more . cost of tooling . cost of insurance cost of losse and liability . here in mi they have what they call milk run that state license and show you as having and moving haz wast . then the cost of moving it out and getting the wast to a safe state and matter thats good in Mi. i had to stop cleaning blocks .heads .cranks tin .for a friend who sells online hard to find pontiac engins. at the time it looked like ok money .till i work it out on paper . no machine work was done and soon foud out there no money in cleaning part with what i have for equipment it.s just the evil part of the deal stuff needs to be clean to machine it. a bake n shake set up is very nice nothing but dust and hi heat burns off the bad stuff but many of them set up ampro are over 20.000 used .to pay that machine off is a hell of a of of 350 chevys much the same with bore bars like my rottler F2B i love it . but they sell used for 7000.to 10.000 that s a hell of alot of bore jobs . well mine busted in the spring of the year .so then i started looking for parts to fix it then some one to service it. every one has died or stop fixing engine machines.but will sell you a new cnc machine . so now i know way more about a fixing rottler boring bar then last year that much go,s with every machine i own . evey machine . i seen cnc machine that you could put 3 parts on and line bore all parts with a tooling set up . but then you have to ask your self how long is it going to take to pay it off will it make money . i would of never got in to the engine machine deal but was the last card i had to play would of stop at valve epuipment and just built engines .it is a very hard bussness around here .. very over rated it has to be way more then money or your never going to like it

Yeah machines cost money. I'm really kicking myself for not buying the last opportunity I had to buy a mill machine w/ vertical head & more cutting heads than I could count. It was from the 40's? I think. But family friend owned a machine shop was giving me a deal at $1500. There was somewhere around 40-50k in heads. I just didn't have the space to put it. I told him I'd be kicking myself within two years for not buying it. Could've done anything I could imagine on it. Was a Boeing machine so lifetime of aircraft tolerances and maintenance. Oh well there's still a lot to get at the new place before worrying about getting machine tools. I've always sent out my bottom ends for machine service n done my own assembly. I'll just need to check out Washington states laws of liability a lil further before I decide if its best to outsource or do things the way of how is always done it for myself or friends on the side . A lot for me to think about Pat.

I been telling myself and others that I have a flat head ford and a 392 hemi that I want to machine for myself and then I'm planning on selling off my equipment---I'll keep a mill, bandsaw, welder, etc but want to get rid of the other stuff as I don't want to move it when we leave this area---------The cleaning/chemical disposal issues are out of this world-------


However---I can buy core blocks that are baked, and machine them which is all labor except for the cost of the core--I pay taxes on the core so I don't have to deal with the state for sales taxes-if someone wants to do Summit/Jegs, fine---no shipping or taxes for me to deal with--------


I find that more and more rare type set ups are coming to me because I know the history of combo and don't just go .030 over if it only needs .005------and I don't machine off any stamped numbers that need to be on there-------


About the only surface that doesn't get machined is the oil pan rails and front cover and bell housing mountings------

Yeah with this move were doing now to get setup into a bigger place has been pretty hectic trying to prep the house & keep business moving . My customers actually a big car nut and we've talked about maybe teaming up on this 77' and doing a road track type car. Course if not he's still a very good client and been chomping at the bit to do an engine for him. Just not sure what the disposal fees would be if I did expand into the machine side but I can always call that family friend. He did just retire and sold off his machine shop so might just pick his brain. Kinda thinking of sticking with the fab side of it now that I'm hearing the horrors of disposal fees n state licencing. I can't paint so that's a given for outsource or interior the rest I can do but as I'm a certified welder I even checked into chassis building but even that's got outrageous fees . Funny how the cost of living goes up but yet welder's who were around for the big boom of pipeline building in the 60's n 70's tell me their wages and now making less per hour but paying 4x the cost in doors n fuel. Makes a guy really pay attention . This is exactly why I don't want to get too big. Just a good solid honest shop doing quality work. Given I do specialize in tig on specialty metals like chromoly n aluminum there's race guys always breaking stuff that want stuff repaired. I've been real cautious of chasing money and keeping a pretty level head about this. Not my first business but at 36 now I'm a lot more educated and a lot more willing to listen than at 19 haha.

I can tell you guys that here in the Pacific northwest I know of only a couple guys I'd tryst to do machine work on a flathead engine or nailhead. But them guys are pushing up there in the years. Just wondering who's going to take over when their gone

oh i save you the time if they have a good lawer they can sue you not a hell of alot you can do about my lawer tells me . know some guys that been down that road . i try like hell to make customers happy some you can not so i try to pass on some if i get the feeling that i could never do any thing that would work. as for mills that mill may of worked. but buying a mill that is setup to do just engines they have tooling and set ups for fast floor to floor time . i have a milled that i milled chevy heads on my J head brigport and cut seat.s for flat heads but never did the job as good as the storm vulcan or the berco with a PCD cutter . i still use the j head mill on the heads and use it to reface the ex side of some heads if they are all chewed out from rust drill and tap .cut pistons added a key ways on cranks many other thing that would be the first machine i would buy

Oh I hear ya. I've passed on guys who I just didn't have a good feeling on. So hard in a day where people are so sue happy. Kinda makes a guy think that the only way to make a living is be some shiesty lawyer lol. Such a sad world we live in have to pass up customers cause of a bad gut feeling their only out to make a buck off a law suit

A good deal for you would be building custom stainless exhaust headers for show cars and hot rods plus the underneath work-even tho you can buy nice headers fo most apps, the underneath out the back stuff is often screwed up--------


and at one time I had 4 bridgeports---could leave them set up for angles on different jobs while still having at least one to bore holes--------

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

A good deal for you would be building custom stainless exhaust headers for show cars and hot rods plus the underneath work-even tho you can buy nice headers fo most apps, the underneath out the back stuff is often screwed up--------


and at one time I had 4 bridgeports---could leave them set up for angles on different jobs while still having at least one to bore holes--------

small hole i use the small engine bore head on the rottler bores nice small hole have a big face plate and bored rods under .002/001.5 then take to size on the sunnen rod hone save on arms had like 12 sets of bbc rods to do have it all setup still pain in the ass

Yeah I'm talking to a couple race teams about doing some stuff for them. I'm looking at a parts line for some very nice stuff all chromoly all fully tig welded. I see a lot of "chromoly" after market parts but are only in reality partially chromoly. And the welds are kinda iffy from looking closely at them. But stainless exhaust yeah that's definitely something to look into. Heck I wanted it for my own hot rod when she's all wrapped up. And do have a supplier that can provide most any engine out there the flanges they do in house. I can order the per cuts in sny thing I want to buy. Real nice guys to work with. Course if I had my own equipment I already have a guy lined up that wants to get in here with me so might just have to do some pricing after we net our house sale money n just figure out what's what on the market and continue to stay in a speciality niche with our parts line which something I'm expanding into with some of our bolt aftermarket street / strip parts. Carroll Shelby's words of wisdom still echo in my ears. Said he never made near as much money building cars as he did building the parts . I will continue to do my homework. Never made a decision without thinking of all the variables. Course just kinda off the cuff I'm already setup for the welding so tube shark would be about the biggest expense for getting the exhaust started. Guys are giving me so much to think about for what areas to expand into and its appreciated . Really just frustrated right now with how tiny the current shop is and turning away clients . Really past chomping at the bit to get into the new facility.

I sure don't wanna come off as chasing rabbits with all the good ideas but as we are expanding and looking into other areas to expand into the hot rod market with. Probably more so in the way of a good parts line geared towards street/strip applications but I do also want to get at least one show car done for next season to showcase those parts on and have the means to turn them out as orders come in. Like I said were just too limited on space right now but the times come to sell our place and find a sutible location to be able to expand into doing more work and more work is always good thing.