Thread: 1937 Dodge coupe

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Ok, I have made some progress (or spent some money, at least) since the above post. I bought a donor car, a really nice hailed out 2005 Chrysler 300c with 106,000 km on it (about 60,000 miles), with a 5.7 litre Hemi. The 37 coupe is completely dis-assembled, and the frame is ready to sand blast. I bought a Mopar 8.25" rear end out of a 76 Aspen, because it was virtually the perfect width, from a wrecker, for $100. I have been dickering with a place in Ontario, called Horton's Hot Rod Parts, for an M2 front end. I have made myself crazy debating whether to go this way, or use a donor car front end, and the decision is made, I am going for the M2. Now I need some advice.
The M2 front end kit typically comes in hub to hub form, complete with new disc brakes, and either power or manual R&P steering. My question is regarding brakes. My donor car has perfectly good 4 wheel anti-lock disc brakes. Is it a manageable project to order the M2 without brakes, take the calipers and discs off the donor, and mount them on new M2 front end, instead of new ones, thereby saving some cash? How much difference is there between mounting plates? Further to that question, is it a manageable project to convert the drum brakes on my junkyard rear axel to discs? Further still, is it a manageable project to install the anti-lock system from the 300c into the coupe? If not, are there difficulties associated with installing ABS calipers, without the ABS system? One challenge that I see right off the bat, is finding a place for the anti-lock system. There will be no room for it in the engine compartment, the Hemi will use up every cubic centimeter of space.
Thanks in advance for any advice. As I mentioned a while back, I am an experienced welder and fixer, but most of my experience has been with farm machinery, so I am asking some kinda dumb questions. Please bear with me...

Yeeeeeaaaaah buddy, this is gettin' interesting now. OK, what you will need to do is modify the MII front spindle to look like and measure like the 300C spindle so that the 300C stuff will bolt on. This will require machine shop work and maybe some expert professional welding. The other option, the one that I would most likely undertake, is the creation of a completely new custom spindle made from mild steel stock. This approach will require some drawings showing proper angles.

Ball joint and tie rod end studs are angled at a certain number of degrees or number of inches per foot of taper on the studs, so use of the proper taper reamer(s) will be necessary to finish the holes in your fabricated spindle. A commonly used taper in the industry is 1 1/2 inches per foot of taper, but use caution and determine the taper of the ballstuds on the balljoints you will use so that you can match up the taper reamers with your parts.
http://www.conicalendmills.com/cutti...mer-end-mills/

This ain't my first rodeo, so what did I do when I needed info like this? I built a drawing board using 2 x 4's and other lumber to make a bed for my table, a hollow-core interior residential door.
Hollow Core Lauan One-Piece Door 34 In. X 80 In.

T-squares and everything else you will need are available at drafting supply houses. You will need enough drawings to allow anyone with a Bridgeport to make the pieces from scratch. The nice part about doing this is that after your project is through, you will have a saleable product that you could introduce into the marketplace for others who would like to use Chrysler brakes on an MII system, or builders using the MII system who would like to be able to use the fabricated spindle as a lowering or raising spindle. Take all your measurements directly from the MII spindles that come with the kit and directly from the 300C spindles . I've done all this before, to adapt big Ford spindles and brakes to a custom IFS. It may sound formidable at first, but it's actually easier than you might think once you get your head wrapped around it. If you don't have one, purchase a used 12" dial caliper from ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...liper&_sacat=0
I prefer Starrett, Mitutoyo or Brown & Sharpe, but I have heard that some of the Chinesium units are pretty good and they are certainly affordable....

A precision angle finder will be indispensable also. Fabricate a jig to hold the MII and 300C spindles in space so you can measure from a nice, flat shop bench top and transfer your findings to paper. When you're ready to begin forming the new spindles, use pre-formed parts to help you, such as short pieces of heavy-wall tubing to use as receptacles for the ball studs. If you hang all the pieces out in space and weld jigs from them to a steel table top, you can connect the dots with whatever metal shapes that it will take to fill in the gaps and make your spindles look professional from the start. For instance, using pieces of 1.250" O.D. by 0.500" I.D. heavy wall tubing will make up the receiving bosses for the tie rod ends and ball joint ends. You can use pieces of 1/2" allthread bolted into these short pieces of tubing to make it easy to establish angles and references to the other parts of the spindle. When the spindle is all welded and machined, use your angled reamers to finish the stud holes to the proper size for the balljoints and tie rod ends used. Smaller pieces of tubing can be used to locate any drilled and tapped bosses that might accept anti-lock sensors and such.

Here's an affordable small drafting machine that you might like....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vemco-3300-1...3D231673156352

Here are a couple of examples of custom spindles....
http://www.gotshocker.com/images/D/FSLK100350_3_L.jpg
http://www.purefjcruiser.com/images/59698-SB.jpg
http://s15.photobucket.com/user/ed_h..._0328.jpg.html
http://www.ksportusa.com/images/bts/IMG_3843.jpg
http://www.britishv8.org/articles/Im...Cars-IFS-B.jpg
http://www.moto-mule.com/mini-buggy/minibuggy-27.jpg
https://www.lefthanderchassis.com/ca...mages/1748.jpg
http://puretacoma.com/images/86350.jpg

In the rear, I would find another home for the Aspen unit and use the entire rear suspension and brakes from the 300C. Study the body support system on the 300C and emulate it on the coupe. You may be able to cut out some of the 300C support assembly from the donor and weld it into the coupe. I used to weld in supports using 1/2" x 1/2" square mild steel tubing when I wanted sheet metal parts to keep their shape while being removed and transferred to a new home, then grind them off when done.
http://www.autopartsfair.com/images/...f_category.jpg

P.S. I have a Pickett AE-30 T-square that I will donate to the project if you want it. I'll pay the freight. Looks like this....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-Pic...-/231673156352

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Wow, Techinspector, it looks like I opened a can of worms here. Whew!!
Ok, This is bit overwhelming, but I might be able to get my head around it. Let me explain a bit of my background, so we can both understand what my capabilities are, theoretically, at least. I took a year of engineering in University in 1970/71, and one of the courses that I passed was drafting, so I think that with a little head scratching, I can manage the drawings. I still have my old T-square, triangles, French curves, compasses, protractor, and some other stuff. That part is manageable, I think. Thanks for the offer of the T-square, but I have one.
As for the machining, and welding, I took a night course years ago in machining and welding, at a community college. My dad was a reasonably talented amateur machinist, he had some training in the army, during WW2, and I have his lathe, and milling machine, and have some basic knowledge of their use. As for welding, I can pile the bird sh*t on as good as the next guy, but I don't think I would trust steering parts to my own skills. My plan for the entire build, or the critical bits, anyway, is to tack weld everything in place, and have a local journeyman welder do the heavy lifting. There are quite a few local kids (they're kids to me, in their 30's) with all the welding skills in the world, who are currently laid off from the oilfield. They will work for beer and steak...
As for the 300 rear end, it seems such a shame to not use it, but it is way too wide. I'll measure it in the morning, just so we have a number. The other issue, which may be a problem, but not necessarily, is that the rear end has struts as well (independent rear suspension). I am pretty sure that I could hide the struts, and the supports, in the trunk. You know what would be a marketable thing, would be a kit that eliminates the struts, front and rear, from more modern suspension systems. I have not found anything on the net...

Originally Posted by Easyrider

As for the 300 rear end, it seems such a shame to not use it, but it is way too wide. I'll measure it in the morning, just so we have a number. The other issue, which may be a problem, but not necessarily, is that the rear end has struts as well (independent rear suspension). I am pretty sure that I could hide the struts, and the supports, in the trunk. You know what would be a marketable thing, would be a kit that eliminates the struts, front and rear, from more modern suspension systems. I have not found anything on the net...

I'd be all about making some rear fender flares if the unit is a little too wide. Either that or slicing and dicing the rear fenders to install widening strips.
https://www.google.com/search?q=wide...IVAZeICh3I_QBc
I would not pass up an opportunity to make the unit work. Just think about the braggin' rights involved and the ride quality. Take lots of photos.

Eliminating the struts would involve engineering and fabricating an upper control arm, then mounting a conventional coil spring or coilover unit. With your training and some perseverance, you could pull it off, I'm sure. Get a copy of Carroll Smith's "Tune To Win" book and read it through. He shows how to make "paper dolls" in the back of the book, a kind of sample suspension system made of paper and using stick pins to test out a suspension geometry on paper before committing to hard parts. Carroll Smith is the only reason I was able to envision and construct an entire independent front suspension from scratch when building my '27 T Roadster. I read many other authors before him, but he was the "Guru-What-Am".

Googling Clanwilliam reveals a South African location. Is that where you are?

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This is just my opinion on what I would do on your project:
Scrap the idea of reusing your old donor brakes, split open the piggy bank for those $30 rotors and the $40 each calipers.
Then get the weld on axle brackets from Speedway for $10 each, or if you have extra time fab your own, get some more $40 calipers and your rear is done.
As for the anti-loc brake feature, nice idea but if it doesn't work right you wasted a ton o'dough and labor. I kicked around the idea in the 90's when I built my roadster and didn't go with it after realizing its partially electonically controlled. I know its safer but we did have brakes for almost a 100 years without anti locks....
Last but not least, put the parts off your donor on ebay and reclaim most of what you just spent... And if or when you ever sell your rod the next owner will thank you the first time he ever has to buy a new part and thank you everytime he drives it for just using a ifs crossmember and not swapping a donor clip under it, you will actually add value to your ride and not bring it down in value when the future owner hears "stub swap" (I know nobody ever plans on resale including me)! Just my thoughts, with the availablity of aftermarket suspension parts this just isn't needed on most rods anymore, Tech is an expert in this as well as someothers on here but you would be making this thing way more difficult than what it needs to be it appears to me.

Originally Posted by Matthyj

This is just my opinion on what I would do on your project:
Scrap the idea of reusing your old donor brakes, split open the piggy bank for those $30 rotors and the $40 each calipers.
Then get the weld on axle brackets from Speedway for $10 each, or if you have extra time fab your own, get some more $40 calipers and your rear is done.
As for the anti-loc brake feature, nice idea but if it doesn't work right you wasted a ton o'dough and labor. I kicked around the idea in the 90's when I built my roadster and didn't go with it after realizing its partially electonically controlled. I know its safer but we did have brakes for almost a 100 years without anti locks....
Last but not least, put the parts off your donor on ebay and reclaim most of what you just spent... And if or when you ever sell your rod the next owner will thank you the first time he ever has to buy a new part and thank you everytime he drives it for just using a ifs crossmember and not swapping a donor clip under it, you will actually add value to your ride and not bring it down in value when the future owner hears "stub swap" (I know nobody ever plans on resale including me)! Just my thoughts, with the availablity of aftermarket suspension parts this just isn't needed on most rods anymore, Tech is an expert in this as well as someothers on here but you would be making this thing way more difficult than what it needs to be it appears to me.

I hear what you're saying, Matthyj. That is why I have made myself crazy with these decisions. The end result of the back and forth indecision, is that I have sort of identified my "mission and vision statements" for the project. I have sort of settled on a "theme", if you will. The theme I am working on is creating a 1937 Dodge Bros business coupe, as if had been built in 2005 (the year of my donor car).

I fully appreciate that the use of aftermarket stuff simplifies the project dramatically, and probably adds value, as evidenced by my decision to go with some form of M2 front end. It makes me squirm a little though, as this is my project, and I hope to learn as much as possible from it, and make it unique to me. As for whether I need ABS or not, you're right, probably not. But I would argue that there is little or no cost to the ABS, if I can get it to work. There are lots of things on a modern car that are unnecessary, but that doesn't mean they are not worthwhile.
I am not sure where you find $40 calipers, but the existing ones on my donor are already paid for.

I greatly appreciate your taking time to contribute to the discussion. Please continue...

Originally Posted by techinspector1

I'd be all about making some rear fender flares if the unit is a little too wide. Either that or slicing and dicing the rear fenders to install widening strips.
https://www.google.com/search?q=wide...IVAZeICh3I_QBc
I would not pass up an opportunity to make the unit work. Just think about the braggin' rights involved and the ride quality. Take lots of photos.

Eliminating the struts would involve engineering and fabricating an upper control arm, then mounting a conventional coil spring or coilover unit. With your training and some perseverance, you could pull it off, I'm sure. Get a copy of Carroll Smith's "Tune To Win" book and read it through. He shows how to make "paper dolls" in the back of the book, a kind of sample suspension system made of paper and using stick pins to test out a suspension geometry on paper before committing to hard parts. Carroll Smith is the only reason I was able to envision and construct an entire independent front suspension from scratch when building my '27 T Roadster. I read many other authors before him, but he was the "Guru-What-Am".

Googling Clanwilliam reveals a South African location. Is that where you are?

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My first task after breakfast tomorrow, is to go measure up the rear end of the 300c. I will report back. I agree that it is probably too early to throw in the towel on it. As for the engineering, I did mention that I flunked out in 1971, didn't I? I am a tradesman, by choice, by training (I have a dusty old Journeyman Lineman ticket someplace) and by genetics. I have worked with my hands my whole life, and I hope this project will be sort of a grand thesis of that. I actually made my living as a full time professional farmer, for 35 years, but most of my day to day work was with my hands.
Clanwilliam is a tiny village in Manitoba, Canada. I see you live in Hemmet. I am sort of your neighbour for 3 months each winter; we spend Jan/Feb/Mar on the beach in Oceanside.
Glen

Originally Posted by Easyrider

I see you live in Hemet. I am sort of your neighbour for 3 months each winter; we spend Jan/Feb/Mar on the beach in Oceanside.
Glen

My girlfriend and I love to bum around on the beaches at Oceanside and Carlsbad. It's only a little over an hours drive from home. Perhaps we could schedule a sit-down when you are there next. I'd like that.
Richard

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Here's the tapered reamer I used when building the T front end. It was stolen from a storage facility I was renting here in Hemet, along with most of my other hand tools..... 7 degrees equates to 1 1/2" per foot of taper. Make sure of the taper used on your ballstuds before purchasing a reamer.
Speedway Tapered Ball Joint Reamer, 7 Degree

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Originally Posted by Easyrider

I am not sure where you find $40 calipers, but the existing ones on my donor are already paid for.

Easyrider, GM metric calipers have sort of beome the "universal" caliper for mustang II swaps, I don't know if a person would really use Mustang II calipers as those where pretty light cars and the caliper wouldn't be suited to stop a heavier streetrod. The metric calipers came on GM products 1978 & up, the brtackets most Mustang II companies include are for this caliper, Speedway Motors has em for $29.99 for 2 3/8" bore new calipers Part # UP37799 in there Garage Sale for the left side, ebay has quite a few starting at the same cost brand new. The nice thing also about the gm's (besides parts availablity) is you can get different bore sizes to suite your ride depending on your rear calipers as well.
Like you mentioned make it your ride and if you want to reuse donor parts more power to you, but if you have a mustang II kit the available parts are dirt cheap and available anywhere and somebody else has already done the hard work (engineered). If you decide to reuse other parts I would take Tech up on his offer, nothing like experience in this game. I have worked weeks on parts just to scrap the whole idea because it either didn't look right or after I was done it really wasn't the best choice and it cost me more in the end, I admire your preserverence, if fabrication is your game (I love it) have at it But I am know expert and try to heavily practice the KISS principal myself, if for nothing else for later repairs and breakdowns. Have fun if I can be of any help, yell but I am sure Tech will get you lined out!

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Ok, here's what happened. I pulled the IRS unit out from under my donor car. What an excellent unit! It's all self contained, you drop the drive shaft, unplug the ABS, disconnect the brake lines, then it's literally 4 bolts, and off it all comes. Cool!

64560[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

Then, I lugged it over to the Dodge frame, and lifted the frame onto it.

Last pic, here it is all jacked up into place, and levelled out. Notice that the mounting brackets align almost perfectly with the frame, as do the springs. The only thing that will need tweeking is the shocks. (Previously, I stated that they were struts, but they're not, they're just really long shocks). They mount outside the frame, and the frame is just a bit too narrow, but it will be pretty easy to notch it out for them. An alternate strategy might be to look around for some shorter shocks that would work.

I am really surprised how closely the two cars match. In fact, I am pretty sure that if I want to, I can cut the inner fenders, and trunk pan out of the donor, and weld them in to the trunk of the coupe. That would eliminate all the guess work involved in mounting the springs and shocks. Then, even the moulded carpet in the trunk would fit! I could even retain the spare tire well, and battery box (ya, the battery is in the trunk), provided I can find a place for fuel. The donor has two fuel tanks, one on either side ahead of the rear axel. Man, I am pretty excited about this!

Sorry about the giant pictures. I haven't figured out how to resize them, perhaps next time...for now, if you are interested enough to look, just scroll side to side to see the whole thing.

OBTW, I bit the bullet and ordered the M2 front end yesterday. The cross member is a "kit" which I weld together, and fit to the frame. The control arms are Heidt. I decided to just go with the spindles and brakes provided, for the time being. I am still pretty interested in the idea of making a front end, but I am not sure I want to delay the project that long, and I sure as hell don't want to rush something like that. As I mentioned earlier, we spend the winter in Southern California, so if I dick around too long, I won't actually make any progress on the project until spring.

Looks like maybe you can tilt the shocks in at the top, coming inside the frame rails vs outside, and make an upper mount? Might have to tweak your lower connection a bit, but seems it might work. I think I'd look for a shorter shock though, just to keep from having those monsters eating into the trunk space.

Now I'm stoked. I can see that this whole thing is gonna turn out great. I'm visualizing using a couple of body mount pucks or equivalent hard rubber biscuits on each of the attachment points so you could adjust ride height later, or leave 'em in there is the ride height turns out just right. Agree with Roger about using a shorter shock. Whatever shock you use, extend it at 55% of its total travel in order to mount it, with the suspension at ride height .

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My front end is finally all here! UPS decided to hang on to one package for the weekend...oh well.
Here's today's question: what is the proper amount of rake? Ok, let me rephrase...what is everyone's opinion on the proper amount of rake? I have read a number of articles that suggest 2" is about right, but that seems pretty conservative to me.
Here is the situation: as you know, I have bolted the IRS from my donor car onto the coupe. It has 14" brake rotors, and uses 18" wheels to make room for them, the existing tires are 225 R60-18's. The new M2 front end that I bought has 11" rotors, so I can go with much smaller rims 15", for example, if I choose. That would allow me to achieve 1 1/2" of "rubber rake". Is that advisable? Are there draw-backs? I can make any ride height I want, but I have to decide now, before I start cutting the new cross-member. I am thinking about making it level, when the 18" wheels are on front and back. That would let me go to 1 1/2" rake, with 15" wheels on front, and an additional 2" with drop spindles. Opinions, please....

It's a PITA finding decent street rod tires for 15" wheels. Just a thought from a guy who made the mistake of buying wheels and tires before getting all the suspension set up properly.