Thread: Can I run w/o trans oil going into radiator???

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Thanks Robot/Mike, Nothing like actual data! Well I pulled the transmission cooler off the side of the frame and am having adventures in plumbing the lines to the radiator. As Henry Rifle mentioned before, I want some sort of flex line between the transmission and the hard lines to the radiator. The tech guy at Walker Radiators says I only need a 5/16" hard line to the radiator and I found some right angle 1/8" pipe thread fittings at NAPA (only two tries!) so I can route the tubing down away from the fan. Even though the fan is higher with the Zip water pump there is still not a lot of clearance down by the crossmember so I have to route the tubing down a way and then across through the tight area by the fuel pump. Then I have found after three tries a combination of fittings to put a short length of rubbercoated braided hose from the transmission to the inside of the frame rail to privide some flexing between the drive line and the frame. The hard line will still have to pass by the down pipe of the headers but using the trans cooler in the Walker Cobra radiator I can now install the fuel line along the outside of the frame rail away from the heat of the cooler and I can use the mounting holes I made for the cooler to hold the fuel line. Everything takes three tries for me but the Walker Tech guy says the water cooler at the bottom of the radiator should be enough cooling if I don't intend to do any towing. Now for the question. I want to install a B&M #80226 transmission temperature gauge as several of you have suggested. It does seem that the only way I can tell if the cooling is OK is with a gauge but the installation requires a non-flare joint on each end of a T-fixture for the thermocouple. Do those bead-type joints really seal OK without a flare? Should I cut the tubing at a slight angle to let fluid reach the thermocouple but push the tubing all the way in to make butt contact? I may be worrying too much but the joints are really in a tight spot between the frame rail and the starter solenoid so I don/t want to be messing with wrenches in that tight space later on if there is a leak!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Hey, any body out there have a picture showing how the lines are set up from the transmission to the cooler in a radiator?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

I am going today I am working on hooking up the 700R4. I saw a few heat sink coolers here in Ohio's Brookgate. It seems a group of Model A Rat Rodders were all sold on it. No temp gauges though so how they know its okay is "trans is shifting okay.' Both Gear Star and local trans shop recommend aux cooler in front of radiator. Definitely do NOT connect to the built in radiator cooling system. 700R4 does run hotter I think so a temp gauge will be worked into the line.

Thanks DennyW. Positions 2 and 3 are no good for me since it is really tight in there. After much messing around and wasting several lengths of 5/16" tubing I finally got two lines from the trans though short rubber-coated-braid flex lines to the bottom of the radiator. I have already learned from several other calls to various Tech guys that they do not always know the right answer so I am now worried about overheating. I have both the long finned aluminum cooler and a two-pass cross-finned cooler but no good place to put it. I also have one of those external coolers which can clog up which Henry Rifle gave to me. I did not use it because of a warning that it can clog and then no fluid can go to the trans. There is a problem here because Virginia requires a front license plate which blocks air in the front, although maybe I can put it low on the bumper. Then an idea might be to put it on the transverse plate on the pan at the bottom of the radiator as I originally planned (see picture) but put it in PARALLEL with the radiator cooler. That way if the plate cooler plugs up I will still get some fluid through the bottom of the radiator. That is more work and requires two T-joints with those bead expansion seals which I don't trust, but I had to use one on the fuel line and it got pretty tight when I pulled down on the sealer nut so maybe two more T-joints with four bead seals will be OK if I tighten them really good. The picture is how I originally plaqnned to use the plated cooler before I learned that they can clog up easily. I may have to mount the license plate off-center so air can get to the trans cooler. The Bebops 'glass body has a stiffener below the radiator between the one-piece fenders which is not on the stock Model A body and is probably a good air scoop and maybe a place for mounting an external cooler. At least the cooler is chrome plated and adds flash rather than just being drab black but of course cooling would be better with a dull black surface. The homemade tube between the frame horns that C9X uses on his '32 successfully is also a possibility as an added cooler in parallel to the cooler in the bottom of the radiator. The strong point of the device C9X uses is that the internal volume of the fluid is pretty large, maybe a pint which gives it more time to cool. In my case the massive stock bumpers would give some protection to the tube cooler.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

I put a temp sensor in my 700R4 pan and have a SPDT switch in front of my water temp gauge. I use a SPDT switch to choose trans temp or engine coolant temp. I also installed a SPST switch to lock up the converter in any gear.

A 700R4 runs hottest in overdrive, and you can burn one up in minutes. I put a large cooler in front of my radiator, and I never have a temp problem.

Henry Rifle/Jack, Thanks for the idea. I bought a B&W temp sensor and gauge but the gauge is a very poor match for the other gauges in my dash. A SPDT switch is a way I can use my in-dash temp gauge to monitor the trans temp and anyway I am just about out of space in the dash for another gauge in the '32 replica. I am not happy about inserting a T-joint in the trans fluid line with those copper bead seals. Do people generally find them to seal well? Can you say more about how you put the sensor in the trans pan? Just drill a hole and use appropriate washer seal? That way I would not need to mess with the 5/16" lines.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Originally Posted by Don Shillady

Henry Rifle/Jack, Thanks for the idea. I bought a B&W temp sensor and gauge but the gauge is a very poor match for the other gauges in my dash. A SPDT switch is a way I can use my in-dash temp gauge to monitor the trans temp and anyway I am just about out of space in the dash for another gauge in the '32 replica. I am not happy about inserting a T-joint in the trans fluid line with those copper bead seals. Do people generally find them to seal well?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don,
Consider putting the temp sender directly into the pan - especially if you have an aluminum trans pan. Unfortunately you do have to drop the ATF out of the transmission, drop the pan, then drill and tap it for the sender. Mine is an aluminum 1 extra quart piece that I may be exchanging for a stamped steel version simply because it hangs too low so will need to weld in a bung. The fluid temp may not be as accurate as a sender in a cooler line but it will at least give me a close enough reading.

This was done when Jack noted about a year ago what he had done

Don,

If you have a trans pan with a drain plug, you can use a bushing and mount the temp sensor in the drain plug hole. If there's no drain hole, you can buy a threaded bulkhead fitting at Pep Boys with a nut and a couple of sealing washers. Of course, you'd have to remove the pan to install it.

Putting a tee in the outlet line of the trans is a decent idea if you have room. I tried that, and it was a mess - no room, plus Gibbon's idea of a trans tunnel. However, trans pressures are low enough (around 160 PSI, if I remember correctly) that even a brass fitting will work OK. If you do want to install a sensor in the outlet line and are uncomfortable with brass, a Swagelok fitting would work.

Also, I did not mount my front license plate. It's in a pocket in the back of the seat. I've been through two safety inspections, and driven all around VA Beach with no problem.

If I get stopped, my first ploy is "They didn't have front plates in '34, so neither do I." If that doesn't work, I'll wing it from there.

Originally Posted by Don Shillady

I am not happy about inserting a T-joint in the trans fluid line with those copper bead seals. Do people generally find them to seal well? That way I would not need to mess with the 5/16" lines.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don. Are you referring to a compression fitting when you say a "Bead Seal" ???

34_40, I guess that is what you call it. It is a cap-nut over a threaded sleeve with a copper bead on the tubing. I have one on my fuel line where it goes into the pump on the low pressure inlet side and I put the fitting into my vise and got a good tight wrench fit on it. I suppose I could take the trans fluid line out of the car and get it into the vise for a nice tight fit but I would not trust the seal on a situation with two wrenches turning in opposite directions while in the confined space of the engine bay. Tapping the trans pan for the temp sensor seems like a good idea at the moment. I called the "Eat My Shift" guy from whom I bought the 700R4 and he recommended Dextron-3 Mercon or better Royal Purple and he thought the situation would be OK for weekend travels with just the radiator cooler, the Derale pan and a high end fluid but he did highly recommend a temp gauge. The Derale pan is indeed the lowest point under my car and speed bumps may be a problem but it is steel and tough enough to dent rather than crack so I think the extra volume of the fluid and some help from the air tubes will hopefully be adequate for "touring". Henry Rifle's SPDT switch is a good idea and solves the problem of my already crowded array of dash gauges and switches. One question that might occur is whether the 12V analog signal from the water temp sensor is in the same range as a 12V trans fluid sensor using the same gauge?

IC2, thanks for the confirmation on the trans pan mount. I would think that location would actually be more accurate for the temp of the fluid.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Originally Posted by Don Shillady

One question that might occur is whether the 12V analog signal from the water temp sensor is in the same range as a 12V trans fluid sensor using the same gauge?

IC2, thanks for the confirmation on the trans pan mount. I would think that location would actually be more accurate for the temp of the fluid.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don,
I forgot what gauges you have but I just ordered an identical 250* sender from these folks for my VDO water temp: http://www.egauges.com/. I just ran another wire to the SPDT switch under my dash and can choose either temp.

I thought I had a photo of the oil pan mounted sender but can't find it in any of my 'e' albums

Originally Posted by IC2

Don,
I forgot what gauges you have but I just ordered an identical 250* sender from these folks for my VDO water temp: http://www.egauges.com/. I just ran another wire to the SPDT switch under my dash and can choose either temp.

I thought I had a photo of the oil pan mounted sender but can't find it in any of my 'e' albums

My gauges are Autometer, and I did the same thing. Same Autometer sensor for both the water and the trans temp. This one, as a matter of fact. You need to make sure that the sender is compatible with your gauge, so use the same mfgr.

The Derale pan is indeed the lowest point under my car and speed bumps may be a problem but it is steel and tough enough to dent rather than crack so I think the extra volume of the fluid and some help from the air tubes will hopefully be adequate for "touring".

Tell me about it. My trans pan is my "speed bump sensor also." I used the same pan - although I apparently lied about the connection. I said I installed it in the drain plug hole. I did that on the original pan from Bowtie Overdrives . . . which leaked. I took that pan off, and used a Derale pan. Here's how I installed the sensor:



I picked up that bulkhead bung at Pep Boys. It's simply a bushing with threads, a couple of plastic washers, and a nut that cinches up on the inside.

Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

Tell me about it. My trans pan is my "speed bump sensor also."

I picked up that bulkhead bung at Pep Boys. It's simply a bushing with threads, a couple of plastic washers, and a nut that cinches up on the inside.

.....being a speed bump sensor is why I'm now waiting delivery of my stock type steel pan to replace my expensive pretty aluminum pan At the price of replacement transmissions and $4.50/quart ATF, $35 is cheap insurance IMHO


How well do those Pep Boys bungs work? The last time I tried one, the two @#$% seals split way before tight and I had to have it welded in

Dave,

Notwithstanding the oil spots on the floor, this one seems to work fine. The key is finding a flat spot to install it. The folks at Bowtie Overdrives installed one on a slight curve near the bottom of the pan. I couldn't get it to stop leaking, and the new bung I bought wouldn't either. I wanted the Derale for cooling anyhow, so I changed it out.

If it ain't leaking, it's empty . . .
- heard from an F-14 Tomcat driver at NAS Oceana

Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

Dave,

Notwithstanding the oil spots on the floor, this one seems to work fine. The key is finding a flat spot to install it. The folks at Bowtie Overdrives installed one on a slight curve near the bottom of the pan. I couldn't get it to stop leaking, and the new bung I bought wouldn't either. I wanted the Derale for cooling anyhow, so I changed it out.

If it ain't leaking, it's empty . . .
- heard from an F-14 Tomcat driver at NAS Oceana

Thanks Jack (...and yep, I did see the oil spots but chose to ignore them as they have become a way of life with my C4 )

Unfortunately Derale doesn't build a pan for a C4 or that's what would be there, speed bumps be danged